With a month until the NBA season, players and owners don't sound much closer to a labour deal than they did when the lockout began.
They're so far apart on money they decided to leave it alone on Saturday and focused mainly on the salary cap.
They couldn't solve that one, either.
"I wouldn't say there was any progress. What happened was, they put some concepts up, we put some concepts up, and we're still miles apart," union executive director Billy Hunter said. "There's a huge bridge, gap, that I don't know if we're going to be able to close it or not."
The sides will meet again on Monday - the day training camps were to have begun - though time is getting short to save the start of the regular season, scheduled for November 1. Neither side sounds optimistic.
In a seven-hour bargaining session, their longest since the lockout began July 1, the sides talked about one of the two major issues that divides them. Owners want a hard cap, or at least want a number of changes to the current soft cap system, which the players prefer to keep largely intact.
The sides didn't even attempt to deal with the division of revenues, the other big obstacle to a labour agreement that would end the lockout.
Commissioner David Stern said he had nothing to announce in terms of cancellations. But the remainder of the preseason schedule is in jeopardy - some games already have been cancelled. Regular-season games could now be threatened, too.
"Our desire would be to not cancel, and we had been hopeful that this weekend would be a broader marker, but for reasons which we understand, the players suggested that we resume on Monday, and we said 'fine,'" Stern said.
Stern did indicate some level of progress, saying: "We're not near anything, but wherever that is, we're closer than we were before."
The sides will meet in small groups, then bring large groups back for another meeting on Tuesday.
Hunter again said owners haven't moved off their proposal to trim the players' guarantee of basketball-related income to 46 percent, down from the 57 percent they were guaranteed in the previous collective bargaining agreement.
With the gulf so wide on money, Hunter suggested they separate the issues and attack one at a time. They started with the cap, where the league has transitioned from a desire for a hard cap to a proposal that would make the luxury tax more severe for the highest-spending teams. Union officials fear that would act like a hard cap by scaring teams into spending less to avoid a harsh penalty.
Stern, Hunter and Deputy Commissioner Adam Silver all said they felt some good came of going at the cap issue first. But they couldn't resolve it, and it leaves another problem on the horizon largely untouched.
"I can't necessarily characterize things as we made progress and that I'm somehow more optimistic than I was yesterday," union president Derek Fisher of the Lakers said. "The reality is we still have an extremely long way to go. Even with the exchanges that we made today, there's still huge gaps in what we've proposed compared to what they've proposed, and then obviously we still have the economics that are just kind of sitting out there waiting for us to tackle. So there's a lot of work left to be done, but we'll keep at this."
Fisher said the players basically gave the owners a list of things they wanted kept in the next cap, likely things such as the midlevel and Larry Bird exceptions that allow teams to exceed the cap. However, the league is looking for ways to keep costs down for owners, and those items are easy targets.
Stern also confirmed he and Miami All-Star Dwyane Wade had a "heated exchange of some kind" during Friday's meeting. Most of the star players had left by Saturday, but Stern and Silver said they were pleased by the number of players who did show up, singling out Boston's Paul Pierce as one who said some meaningful things.
Hunter said he assumed it would be possible to save the entire season if the sides agreed to a deal by the middle of next week. But that will be difficult, given it could take as much as month between an agreement being reached and the time games could be played, so that free agency and exhibition games can first take place.
Hunter added the union hadn't even signed off on the league's plan for enhanced revenue sharing among teams, after Stern indicated Friday that players would be OK with it.
Even though Stern had warned of "enormous consequences" of not making significant progress toward a deal this weekend, he is remaining hopeful.
"If we didn't think that there was any hope, we wouldn't be scheduling the meetings," he said. "But that's the best I would say right now."